Falwell's legacy

which old witch, the Wicked Witch, Ding dong the wicked witch is DEAD!

Sorry, but couldnt' resist. Fred Phelps is going to protest? Does that mean that he is going to start another web site to count how many days Falsewell is in HELL? Wow...to think that ol' Jerry is going to suffer the same fate as a homo-sexual. Blows my mind.

Seriously, the world will be a better place without him. And on a personal note: Dear God, try not to be too angry at Jerry, he is looking to open his eyes at the right hand of God and he is now in hell. Have mercy on his Soul dear God, and please, please, don't send him back to Earth until he has evolved to the point where he understands tolerance, acceptance, and Love.
Amen, Blessed Be, Namaste.

freethought states that Falwell's legacy "will be the same of BinLaden, Mohammed Atta and any other terrorist".

Nice.

Yes, Jerry Falwell has strapped explosives on the backs of children and exploded them at liberal gathering places. Falwell also trained fellow neocons to fly airplanes into liberal gatherings - killing thousands of innocent lives.

What an absurd comparison and one that truly shows the level of hatred and intolerance you have for Christians.

I have at times cringed when Falwell and Pat Robertson spoke. Quite simply, some of the things they have said are just not "Christian". However, the impression that they speak for all Christians is simply not the case.

However, to link Falwell to terrorism is just plain garbage and I don't know why I am surprised that it came from you.

You and other liberals will only remember him for stupid remarks he made and later retracted, but many more will remember him for being a innovator of the modern conservative movement and for the education and training provided by Liberty University

I hope that conservatives will display more class than the libs have done this week when one of their own passes.

Thanks again for showing everyone on this board how classless you can truly be.

Axel would be proud!

Religious Nutcases are dangerous no matter what imaginary friend they worship. Falwell and his ilk divide the country and promotes these divisions. Falwell was nothing more than a bigot with a microphone. I don't care what religion he was - he simply was a pathetic hate monger.

"Yes, Jerry Falwell has strapped explosives on the backs of children and exploded them at liberal gathering places." - I wouldn't put it past him or his followers. First they bomb abortion clinics, then it goes from there.

At what point does Religion go to far? What is the difference between a Suicide Bomber and a Mob of Angry Anti-Choice nuts harassing people going into planned parenthoods to have a completely legal proceedure? Don't they both provide Terror? How about keeping life saving medical treatments from people because of your beliefs?? Isn't that terrorism? How about keeping information from our young people that could keep them safe from diseases? Is that not Terrorism.

Christianity, Islam, Blah blah blah - its all the same garbage. A bunch of people pushing their unfounded beliefs around. Religion is the most destructive power on the face of this planet. The sooner the Human species moves away from the Land of Make-believe the better.

You think Conservatives will display class? Look at the commentary that came from the Right regarding the Paul Wellstone funeral. You think Falwell was an Innovator? Get real - he preached hate based on his beliefs. How is that innovative.

Falwell, Robertson and all the other religious nutcases are dragging the country down. Believe in a crusty old storybook, and ignore proven science. Awesome way to keep the country stupid.

If being classless is having no respect for a Man who supported descrimination, segregation, hatred and ignorance then so be it.

You make random, unsubstantiated accusations that have nothing to do with anything other than your hatred.

Falwell was innovative in how he motivated an entire class of citizenry in this country that had been pushed aside by the liberal left to get involved and quit letting liberals such as yourself bash them back into the proverbial closet.

"What is the difference between a Suicide Bomber and a Mob of Angry Anti-Choice nuts harassing people going into planned parenthoods to have a completely legal proceedure?"

How about for starters -DEATH is the difference. Nobody dies being yelled at entering an abortion clinic. How about the torture and death of innocent babies in the same clinic? And, in case you haven't heard, the liberal courts have eliminated the Freedom of Speach within a certain area of abortion clinics. If you chose to protest outside a church, you would be allowed to. The same right is not extended to those that oppose abortion.

Again, the rest of your rant is just that - a rant. Makes no sense. No logical or reasoned argument.

BTW, being such a scientific mind - can you explain to me again how the universe was formed? Please site empirical evidence and not just theories. Because, after all, what is a theory other than a guess that is taken in faith to be true. Sounds like religion, don't it?

But you seem to be proving a point too. The point you seem to pound home is encapsulated in your comment;

"Falwell was innovative in how he motivated an entire class of citizenry in this country that had been pushed aside by the liberal left to get involved and quit letting liberals such as yourself bash them back into the proverbial closet."

He did so while hoisting a cross and making its bearers victums, in their own minds. Not one "Christian" has ever suffered the discrimination and hatred directed at non christians in this country. Those liberals were now insisting that they have the very same freedoms the Christians have enjoyed for themselves and the religious right was outraged that any other type of citizen try to claim these rights for themselves. Thus the Moral Majority was born, out of fear.

JErry hated fags, he made up the "gay agenda." JErry hated witches, he blamed 9-11 on them, Jerry likes the Jews, and he begs for money for his ministries there.

Hood, there have been lots of people shot and killed at abortion clinics down through the years. Please go to the Army of God website and read up on how Eric Rudolph and his merry band of "God's" warriors would like to kill them all, in Jesus' name of course.

Sorry to join the conversation late, but could just not help but commenting. Have a nice day

Hood,

Your defending a fear-monger. He motivated bigots and validated their fear of people different from them. Ewww... the mean "liberal left" the terrible progressives. Next you will be crying about the boogie man.

The question I asked was rhetorical. Suicide Bombers and the Pro-Back Alley abortion crowd both provide TERROR!! Torture of innocent babies? There is no evidence (something the religious crowd hates to hear) that the fetus in question feels any pain, or even displays consiousness. Instead, you assume they feel or have a soul, yet have no proof!

The scum who protest outside of abortion clinics pose a significant threat to the patients and the employees of the clinics. They terrorize (yes, the same word used to describe suicide bombers) when they opt to have a completely legal proceedure. There is no difference between the abortion protesters and clansmen who burned crosses on lawns of black families. Both use terror to press their beliefs upon people.

Hood, if you really don't like abortion then dont get one. But keeping people from exercising their right to one is oppression. Scaring a girl who is already in an unstable emotional state is criminal and disgusting.

In regards to the universe, I can't give you those answers. I will be honest, I have no PhD in Astronomy, Physics or BioChemistry. I do however prefer to listen to people who do have those credentials. Your statement regarding theories is false. I suggest you put down the bible and read a science text book. Science is constantly progressing whereas Religion is stagnant. Science is truely innovative, where Religion inhibits progress.

I have never read anything Falwell said that invoked fear in me. As I mentioned, he said some stupid things from time to time and would apologize for it. What I defended was your assertion that he was just as terrible as BibLaden. There is no comparison.

The "scum" are no longer allowed to protest outside abortion clinics. Even if they marched peacefully and said nothing toi anyone entering the clinic, they would still not be allowed to protest. Some freedom, huh?

I like how you characterized women seeking abortions as being in an "unstable emotional state ". Begs of irrational behavior. And I love how you want to educate everyone except for women seeking an abortion. Let them have their choice, but don't give them any information that might lead to a different outcome.

And yes, a baby can feel pain. Look at the development cycle. In the first trimester, there is a heart, brain and nerves. Premature babies definitely feel pain. Does something magical happen to them outside the womb to allow for feeling pain? Certain not. Again, you ignore the scientific evidence and believe what the liberal left tells you to believe.

My statement regarding theories is true. Put down your science book and pick up a dictionary.

A theory is: contemplation or speculation; a guess or conjecture

A theory is just that - a guess. "Big Bang" - just a guess. "Evolution" - same thing. You have "faith" in what science is unable to prove. Again, sounds like a religion to me.

The thing is you see science as innovative, progressive. I do have a scientific mind and cannot question empirical evidence. Science is ever changing - new theories are created, things are proven and then unproven. God is the same today as he was in the beginning and will be forever. Truth is truth no matter what you think.

I think I'll place my trust in the unchanging creator and not so much in humans with their limited capabilites.

"God is the same today as he was in the beginning and will be forever. Truth is truth no matter what you think. " You state this is the "truth" yet you have nothing to back up your claims. Where is the proof that any god exists? You are making an assumption on faith and indoctrination.
"God is the same today as he was in the beginning and will be forever?" Which god are you talking about, the christian god? The one in the old testament or the new one? The fear invoking, blood thirsty one, or the loving one? You claim this truth, yet there is NOTHING to back this up with the exception of a story book. A grisly fairy tale that encourages murder, incest and hate. Perhaps your god is nothing more than a concept imposed on people to promote fear and servitude?

truly perfected the use of fear as a tool of control. You have to give them credit, no conversion, no life, no problem.

I have also wondered how people could have such blind faith in this one book, better known as the King James Bible. I have often wondered why any sane person would NOT question this book and why the obvious, fear-based thought was not transparent to them.

Oh well, the Natives thought the world was held up by a giant turtle...just as plausible I suppose.

Enlighten, you post reminded me of something I saw posted on an atheist website. "Easiest way to make someone an atheist, have them read the bible".

You make a good point regarding the Catholics. Lets not forget the Islamic countries accross the world. Truely using religion for control.

“The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas -- uncertainty, progress, change -- into crimes.‿ - Salman Rushdie

You state I have no proof that God exists. You're right in the strictest, scientific sense that I cannot produce physical evidence - there is no videotape of God, no address to send a photographer to.

Likewise, you cannot prove that big bang, evolution or many other theories are in fact true. That's why they are theories. We seek to explain what we cannot empirically demonstrate, so we call it a theory. You accept science on faith and indoctrination.

Science is your religion. The big difference is science is always proving itself to be wrong. My God is the same in the Old Testament and he is in the New. He is a God that loves, but ultimately disciplines - much like earthly parents should do.

My God does not exist to "promote fear and servitude". Christians have chosen to follow God. You have chosen not to. God could have made us robots, but he gave us free will. You're exercising yours and I am exercising mine.

You speak on science as if everything was an absolute and we can explain it all. We can explain what gravity does, but we can't really explain how it came to be. We think that a fish could decide to walk and throw itself on the beach and become human. If that's the case, why aren't the fish throwing themselves on the beach today? Maybe they've evolved to the point they realize they don't want to be humans, they're better off in the ocean. If that's the case, why aren't you evolutionist throwing yourselves off the pier and deciding to become fish?

We both take what we believe on faith. Yours is limited by what our human minds can comprehend. The world is a random, happenchance kind of place. I believe there is a creator. There is intelligent design to the universe - yet we are given free will on how we live our lives. Makes more sense than a big explosion that formed everything randomly. And where did the stuff come from in the first place to go "bang". Ultimately, there had to be a creator to put it there.

You can chose not to believe it, but that doesn't mean it ain't so.

You stated: "My God does not exist to "promote fear and servitude". Christians have chosen to follow God. You have chosen not to."

So anyone who choses to serve God must do so as a Christian? I believe that I serve God and love my God. I also believe in One God/dess. So where does that leave me, dillusional or just dead wrong in your book?

Free will implies that a person would use their own mental prowess to discern whether or not they believe in God. Why would a Loving God have a problem with this?

You confuse me with your fence stradling. You going to bail like Yada?

Just figured you had bigger fish to fry.

My comment was in response to freethoughts statement that "Perhaps your god is nothing more than a concept imposed on people to promote fear and servitude?". I was stating that my God allows for free will and has not enslaved anyone. I am a Christian, so I cannot speak for other religions, but the comment was specifically directed against "my God".

God is a God of Love, but also is a God of judgement. That role belongs to him and him alone. That is why you never hear me say that someone is going to hell. That's not my job - I don't make that decision. All I can tell you is what I know from the Bible, but ultimately, each person will stand before God and be judged.

Not sure where you think I straddle a fence and did not know yada had bailed.

but I was out of town and away from any electronics. No fish frying, I don't eat meat...I thought you would have guessed that about me.

I hope I have not misjudged you, but it seems to me that you get into the "the liberals are christian bashing" everytime religion comes up.

I also believe in a Loving God but believe that upon death, we judge ourselves...but I will NEVER try to impose my belief system on anyone else.

The Yada comment is because I have not seen a posting from Yada since he/she got cussin' mad at a comment I made on another thread and got censured.

I wish Yada and Axel would come back...you can be too liberal of a conservative for my tastes.

You straddle the fence when you say things like "the opportunity to accept God (Jesus)" and your unending defense of all things "christian", even Jerry Falwell. I don't understand how any intelligent human being could see anything positive in the hate and fear Mr. Fawell spread and encouraged.

doesn't make them any less Christian or any less liberal - we just happen to disagree on some things, but remain very good friends.

freethought wasn't just Christian bashing, freethought was religion bashing. As most of the people on earth follow some sort of religion, some of things being said - including the desire for religion to be wiped off the face of the earth - I found a little offensive.

I had forgotten about the yadda post. I also would like to see yadda back and even axel - if axel can try to be in control and not wish death upon people.

I can't defend my statement on "the opportunity to accept God(Jesus)" because I'm not sure where in this post I have used that expression so I can elaborate on the context and my intent.

As far as defense of Falwell, my main defense was against freethoughts assertion that his actions were equal to terrorist that kill, maim and destroy. I also will defend Falwell on the basis that he was not perfect, but he did a lot of good. Yes, and I have said this previously, he and Pat Robertson have said things that make me cringe because I know people will say they represent all Christians - which is simply not the case. When these comments have been made, I and other Christians have been quick to react and demand an apology be made. In most instances that I am aware of, Falwell did apologize.

I certainly hope that my life will be judged by my fellow humans on the whole, not on certain parts alone. Same with you and same with freethought and same with Falwell.

Come on hood,

I made an educated observation and it offended you, at what point was that religion bashing? If calling something responsible for wars, close minded thinking and persecution bad - then so be it. At what point was I wrong? What good has religion done? What benefits has it given mankind?

My position is still the same, religion has hindered mankind and has caused more harm than good. If you want to try to prove me wrong, go ahead. So far you havent made a decent argument.

“The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas -- uncertainty, progress, change -- into crimes.‿ - Salman Rushdie

I don't know, maybe it was the calling all religions of the world GARBARGE. Maybe it was the liking people of faith to terrorists and wishing for the elimination of religion from the face of the earth.

So, you're saying the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Samaritan's purse, Operation Christmas Child and the millions and millions that are helped each and every year does no good to the world?

I would also argue that the people doing the bad stuff in the name of religion probably do not have a grasp of what their professed religion believes. In other words, a so-called Christian group that has taken their belief in the rights of the unborn to extreme measures would not be labeled as Christian in my book.Their allegiance lies with a political philosophy more so than a religious one. Same way with your allegiance to a scientific philosophy.

There is nothing inadequate about my arguments. Another line from a song I like - "God is not silent, we are not listening". You have turned a deaf ear towards anything positive about religion.

I don't know, maybe it was the calling all religions of the world GARBARGE. Maybe it was the liking people of faith to terrorists and wishing for the elimination of religion from the face of the earth.

Hood, I did not call religion garbage, I called it a disease much like cancer. Please try harder to get it right. I still stand by that conviction, because both are highly destructive and pain causing. Regarding the terrorist quote, I was refering to Jerry Falwell, who is still much like Usama BinLaden and other fundimentalist terrorists. Both propigate their position through the use of terror, ie they are both terrorists.

So, you're saying the Red Cross, Salvation Army, Samaritan's purse, Operation Christmas Child and the millions and millions that are helped each and every year does no good to the world?

The Red Cross is a secular organization. I suggest you read their mission statement. Salvation Army - discriminates in their hiring practices, forces religion on their employees. Samaritan's purse / operation christmas child - evangelical organization and program that preaches the "love" of christ to people who suffer trauma from disasters. How does this do good in the world?

I would also argue that the people doing the bad stuff in the name of religion probably do not have a grasp of what their professed religion believes. In other words, a so-called Christian group that has taken their belief in the rights of the unborn to extreme measures would not be labeled as Christian in my book.Their allegiance lies with a political philosophy more so than a religious one. Same way with your allegiance to a scientific philosophy.

Are you sure you are not the one who lacks a grasp of your religion? Was it not the bible that suggests putting people to death for working on the sabbath? What is a good christian to do with an unruly child - stone him at the edge of town! So these "extremists" might be right in the eyes of their bloodthirsty diety, and perhaps you are not fully understanding what your diety wants from you.

I make my decisions based on evidence and facts. Science provides this. I do not have an undying devotion to science, but science is the best tool in making educated rational decisons. Why would I leave that up to a crusty old book written thousands of years ago by a troup of wandering cultists?

There is nothing inadequate about my arguments. Another line from a song I like - "God is not silent, we are not listening". You have turned a deaf ear towards anything positive about religion.

You have failed to argue for the existance of your diety. How much more inadequate do you have to be!! Just because you "feel" there is doesnt mean there is!! Dilusional Schitzophrenics "feel" they have bugs crawling under their skin, but it doesnt make it so. Religion is nothing more than a mass dilusion that causes more harm than good. That is my position, and you have yet to provide any evidence to counter that point. At one point, the masses believed that you would fall off the edge of the Earth if you sailed too far in one direction. Guess what - this belief was wrong!!

You say you did not call religion garbage? Let's look up a few posts, shall we?

Falwell's American Taliban...
Submitted by freethought on Wed, 2007-05-16 18:00.
Religious Nutcases are dangerous no matter what imaginary friend they worship. Falwell and his ilk divide the country and promotes these divisions. Falwell was nothing more than a bigot with a microphone. I don't care what religion he was - he simply was a pathetic hate monger.

At what point does Religion go to far? What is the difference between a Suicide Bomber and a Mob of Angry Anti-Choice nuts harassing people going into planned parenthoods to have a completely legal proceedure? Don't they both provide Terror? How about keeping life saving medical treatments from people because of your beliefs?? Isn't that terrorism? How about keeping information from our young people that could keep them safe from diseases? Is that not Terrorism.

Christianity, Islam, Blah blah blah - its all the same garbage.

No interpretation - simply YOUR words.

With regards to the Red Cross, I do accept that the organization itself (per the charter) is not a religious one. However, it you look to the history of the formation of the organization as well as the majority of volunteers that serve, I think you'll find an overwhelming presence of people of faith. Your unwillingness to accept that faith-based organizations serve humanity well just goes to show how closed-minded you truly are.

List for me an atheist organization that does a fraction of what any one of these do.

And by the way, I am not inadequate nor a "Dilusional Schitzophrenics". Your continued bashing, name calling and overall disdain for people of faith is wearing thin.

You've made your choice and no one is calling you anything. My tongue is bleeding from biting it so hard, but I'm not going to stoop to your level.

Still praying for you, though :)

Ok, forgot about that. I appologize for my lack of memory, though it does not change my position.

The Red Cross is a secular organization, simply put. Also, "three of the four greatest American philanthropists have been atheists or agnostics". They are Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Andrew Carnegie. John D. Rockefeller is the exception. Apparently their money isn't good enough for your list, so perhaps they should give it back? I would contend that they do much more than any of the organizations you listed.

I don't understand why you are taking offense to the comparison. You claim to talk to beings that have never been proven to exist, so do many mental patients. I am not bashing you, just pointing out the obvious.

Here is the difference between you and I, you consider religion belief "untouchable" where I do not. I think it is absolutely silly why someone would take a belief, stand behind it and get outraged when it is challenged. You continue to call me close-minded yet you continue to follow a book simply because it makes you feel good.

You can continue to pray for me, though it will do no good. How many amputees have prayed for their missing limbs, only to be disappointed? Why does your god hate amputees?

Please, "stoop to your level". I am simply putting forward the argument that religion has more negative factors to human society than positive. Religious leaders supposably hear the voices of god, in many of the same ways mental patients do. You consider religious beliefs to be sacred, where I do not. You still have yet to make a decent argument regarding your position other than your "feelings". Could it be that you simply have no evidence or true reason to follow your holy leaders?

“The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas -- uncertainty, progress, change -- into crimes.‿ - Salman Rushdie

about what you believe started this world. I doubt you can do it. Just like I doubt you can 100% give proof (or anyone else out there) that global warming is created by man. Global warming exists but it is how or why it exists is the question. If you think science is 100% and want to live your life accordingly...that is your perrogative. My point is that you continue to down religion, you call anyone who believes in God a fool and you blame religion for all the bad in this world. Like it or not, the majority of people in this world believe in a God...in your opinion...that is a lot of fools.

I just want you to give the concrete proof of the Big Bang theory, evolution and anything else you believe in...because it seems that you are the type of person that needs tangible evidence in order to believe anything. I love science and I have never seen any concrete evidence of anything concerning how this world was created. I have a hard time swallowing what you write when you denigrate anyone who believes in creationism and yet your beliefs are based on science which isn't 100%. Something/someone created this world and you nor I can say definitively how that happened...scientist can't either. So, I think it is inappropriate to call anyone a fool for what they believe. By the way, there have been atheists mass murderers as well (can't just blame that on religion)...remember Stalin and Trotsky?

about what you believe started this world. I doubt you can do it. Just like I doubt you can 100% give proof (or anyone else out there) that global warming is created by man. Global warming exists but it is how or why it exists is the question.

What I find funny is that when I ask the same question to a religious follower regarding the existence of their god, I get no definitive answer, just their “feelings”. They “feel” that there is a personal god that loves them and holds them dear. They “feel” they have a special relationship with this omniscient being yet can produce no true evidence that the entity even exists. The difference here is that religion is a mindset where as science is a tool. We can use science to test theories and formulate outcomes. Religion on the other hand, dictates when is supposed to be the social norm and convinces its followers that whatever is written in a dusty old book is true. Throw out all logic and believe in the “good book”. Don’t question god, for that is a “sin”. Why do religious followers constantly compare science to religion? They are not even on the same level. It would be like comparing great works of literature to a typewriter. One is the concept, the other is a tool. Whether you accept the concept is totally up to the individual
Regarding your Global warming comparison, 99% of international scientists say global warming exists. They CAN (a huge difference between religion and the scientific community) produce evidence to back up their beliefs. They don’t just point to 1 book and say, “Global Warming exists because a wandering band of crackpots wrote it down 2000 years ago.” Your comparison does not hold enough water to argue it further.

If you think science is 100% and want to live your life accordingly...that is your perrogative. My point is that you continue to down religion, you call anyone who believes in God a fool and you blame religion for all the bad in this world. Like it or not, the majority of people in this world believe in a God...in your opinion...that is a lot of fools.

Regarding your assumption that I blame all the bad in this world on religion, I don’t. I don’t blame all the world’s problems on religion, but I will place the majority of the problems on religion. It is really quite simple. Name any other human created concept that has caused as much death and destruction as religion? Can’t think of any?
At one point in the history of the planet, all of the civilizations believed in polytheistic religion. Multiple gods, for all types of events from love to lightning. They built multiple churches, had multiple wars and multiple human sacrifices. Today, you would consider the polytheistic followers fools. Look at the ancient mayans, who ripped out the heart of a young girl every day just to make sure the sun would rise again. Today we would consider this barbaric, yet in those days it was completely understandable. Would you consider that act foolish? Are you not atheistic to the ancient mayan beliefs or any polytheistic beliefs for that matter? I don’t consider religious followers fools, I would consider them mislead by early indoctrination forced on them by their parents. Their parents believe because their parents believed, and so on and so on… This does not make the belief correct. Take children of racists or spouse abusers. These beliefs are ingrained into children at an early age. What sane person would think it is perfectly ok to denigrate someone for the color of their skin or cause physical harm to ones spouse? Yet this happens all too often.

I just want you to give the concrete proof of the Big Bang theory, evolution and anything else you believe in...Because it seems that you are the type of person that needs tangible evidence in order to believe anything. I love science and I have never seen any concrete evidence of anything concerning how this world was created.

Once again, science is the tool we use to make our decisions. I believe in the Big Bang theory and evolution simply because they make the most sense. People who are much more qualified than I am work in those fields and make determinations based on evidence. Those findings are then scrutinized by the scientific community and reviewed by their peers. This process is far more accurate than that of any religious order (ask that to the victims of the Salem witch trials). Creationism is nothing more than re-branded religion. Leaving answers up to a mystical “Creator” is simply not science. What tests have been done to prove the existence of this creator? None. Yet people think that Intelligent Design and Creationism are completely decent alternatives to Evolution. To chalk anything up to irrefutable complexity and pin the reason on a “designer” is simply lazy. “Can’t figure it out”, chalk it up to the mysterious “designer” instead of doing more work. What the Intelligent design movement does is quite simple – “pitch the controversy”. They have no true evidence to back up their claims. Look at Michael Beeheh’s normal argument for his position. He shows you 2 images – the first is a Mountain top. He then asks, “How did that get here”, simple plate tectonics answers his question. He then shows you a picture of Mt. Rushmore and asks “Was this designed?” This argument is extremely biased and is enough to make anyone with a simple bit of common sense chuckle. Of course it was designed; we can go an meet with the designer. This does not however, prove his point. Though you claim to love science, why do you do it a disservice to lump in creationism with it?

I have a hard time swallowing what you write when you denigrate anyone who believes in creationism and yet your beliefs are based on science which isn't 100%. Something/someone created this world and neither you nor I can say definitively how that happened...scientist can't either.

This is a typical “god in the gaps” argument. Since, science can’t prove it to 100%, then “god” must have filled the gaps? How preposterous! Science continues to make new discoveries and fill those gaps. Why do you think religion has such problems with scientific discovery? With every new discovery, those gaps get filled. These discoveries edge out the “god” use to fill those gaps.

So, I think it is inappropriate to call anyone a fool for what they believe.

I am not calling anyone a fool, but I am calling the belief foolish.

By the way, there have been atheists mass murderers as well (can't just blame that on religion)...remember Stalin and Trotsky?

There may have been, but if you look at the evidence more crimes against humanity have been done in the name of religion. The blood that is on Stalin’s hands were a direct result of communism and despotism, not because of atheism. True, Stalin was an atheist but did not slaughter his people due to their religious beliefs. On the other hand, Hitler was a devout Christian. In Mein Kampf, he wrote “faith is the sole foundation of a moral attitude” and in a speech made in 1938 stated “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." Would it be more appropriate to consider this mass murder mentality on religion? Though we can stop there, we don’t have too. Consider the religious states in the Middle East, where they stone innocent girls to death due to Islamic law. How about the conflicts in Ireland in the 1990s between the Protestant and Catholic sects living there? How about the current violence in Iraq between the 3 warring factions of Muslims living there, or in Darfur? Did the Serbian / Croatian conflicts illustrate the negatives of religious thinking? I didn’t even mention the Crusades, the Inquisition or the 9-11 attacks.
My point is really quite simple. Religion does more harm than good for man kind.

why you felt it is ok for you to believe in Big Bang theory and evolution (which can't be proven 100%) and talk so negatively about someone who believes in creationism (which also can't be proven...it is based on faith). You mention all the horrors of this world done by religious fanatics. There are many people in this world who will even read the bible and twist the scriptures to condone their bad actions. It is very easy to do if you want to justify why you control a person you are supposed to love or harm others who are of different race...take a verse out of context. Those people who do that give religion a bad name. But I can assure you that many religious people contribute greatly to this world.

You say that people only know what their parents taught them growing up (that is basically what you said). I guess I am the exception to the rule. I wasn't raised in the South, I have one parent that was Jewish (now is New Age...has similar beliefs to those written by enlighten), one parent that was Protestant, and I have a sibling that is atheist. My family (immediate and extended) is made up of all different types of belief systems. However, I have had things happen in my life that prove to me God is very real. By the way, I don't hear voices...and neither do many other Christians. My prayers are answered by strong feelings of which decision to make following prayer. Never have I heard God literally speak to me. I have a grandmother who was very prejudice against all races and, believe me, my father didn't raise me that way...he raised me to love everyone. As a matter of fact, I confronted my grandmother several times while I was young about how wrong she was to say those things. I will give you the fact that most people are influenced by how their parents raise them, but that wasn't the case with me.

My global warming statement was basically saying that it is not a question of if it actually exists, but why it exists. Is it man-made? Is it natural cycle? My debate isn't if it really is happening...it is what is causing it. Many meterologists (which study weather patterns) do not believe that global warming is due to the behavior of people. Through the billions of years, this earth has gone through more extreme weather patterns then it is now (i.e. Ice Age). Tell me, did people's actions back in the Ice Age cause that weather pattern? A lot of the scientists today base their findings only using the data from the last 50 to 100 years. Why aren't they going back a lot further to base their findings? That being said, I still believe that regardless of the cause of global warming, we need to do our part to be nice to the earth. It is also a matter of well-being.

Again, the reason I posted was to find out from you why you seem almost hateful towards people of faith when your beliefs are not 100% either...you are just going off of what seems "right" for you. I really don't have a problem with you having different beliefs but I think everyone should be respectful enough to not denigrate someone else because they believe differently from you...that's all.

who stated "Name any other human created concept that has caused as much death and destruction as religion?".

Interesting on multiple levels:

1) The inference being that there are things out there not created by humans. To whom do you attribute them, then? Can nature create? Does nature have the ability to reason and design the weather?

2) I would argue that religion as a "concept" has not caused the death and destruction that you mention. I would link the death and destruction you mention to: Pride/Vanity; Envy; Gluttony; Lust; Anger/Wrath; and Greed. These are traits associated to individuals not to most religions (Scientology being the exception - interesing how they came up with the name).

You also feel that the concepts of religion hold no relevance to today. So, belief that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc.... have no relevance today? And what is our law if not based upon somebody's value system?

You place so much emphasis on science, but the bottom line is that science cannot explain the concept of right versus wrong. I believe you to be a person of conscience and that has nothing to do with science. How do you explain what you feel to be right versus wrong?

Perhaps I was not entirely clear. When I mentioned human concept, I simply meant any other social structure (economic, political, cultural). Sorry for the unclear statement, please chalk that up to a desperate need for caffeine at 4am.

I would disagree, and state that the traits can be applied directly to religion. Take Anger/Wrath. Was this not the underlying theme of the god of the Old Testament. How about Pride/Vanity - directly written into the ten commandments! If you take a step back, you will notice that these concepts can be applied to your god which could indirectly determine god being man made and not the other way around.

The beliefs of murder / stealing etc are not due to religion. Humans are social animals, which over the years have adapted to various environments. Our morals do not come from any book, they are taught to us through our parents, which have been passed down from generation to generation. It would be completely chaotic is our sence of right and wrong came from religion. Slavery would still be accepted, along with incest, human sacrifice and other barbaric practice that would make any decent person frown in disgust.
Your absolutely correct in stating that the law is based on someone's value system. But believing that these values come from religion is down right scary. Look at cultures that practice Sharia law. This is a prime example of religion and laws mixing. In Sharia law, people get stoned to death for extramarital sex. Seems a little barbaric?

in Kentucky. It is all about creationism and even has displays showing just how they thought all the dinosaurs fit into Noah's Ark.

While I agree that there is a God, I have a hard time with the Christian version of God...to limited and mean for me.

Maybe you and your family could take a trip to Kentucky this summer and bask in the glow of being around all those people who agree with you...and maybe the next museum will be one featuring all the animals and plants and trees that have gone extinct due to God's decision to give "man" dominion over the Earth.

Real scientists are having a field day discrediting your creation theory...apparently it is not bonafid scientific method to just say...In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth. Go figure.

Would be like calling Disney Land a university. It just goes to show that a fool and his money are easily parted.

but I was just trying to be polite.

Have to say that the display they showed on tv was Hillarious! People lighting fires and cooking next to some type of raptor...me thinks that the human may have been lunch to such a creature but who am I to say?

I think this push to legitmize creationism is in full force. SC legislators are now trying to introduce that Bible as Literature course by stating that without a knowledge of the actual contents of the bible, a young person would be unable to dicipher any modern day literature.

I sat down with the text book for over 2 hours...It WAS A JOKE! The entire "text book" was nothing but a bible study course. The copy I looked over was the "instructor's" version...the homework was to read passages and then relate them to modern times...oftentimes there was no mention of any particular book and the authors (or should we say creators) even had the nerve to include Thomas Paine, go figure.

Maybe we could send all the fundies to Kentucky for a look see at the new museum, ah um, creation?

Regarding your last post....

Your Statement
My rebuttle

You state I have no proof that God exists. You're right in the strictest, scientific sense that I cannot produce physical evidence - there is no videotape of God, no address to send a photographer to.
Correct there is absolutely no evidence in any "creator" or "god".
Likewise, you cannot prove that big bang, evolution or many other theories are in fact true. That's why they are theories. We seek to explain what we cannot empirically demonstrate, so we call it a theory. You accept science on faith and indoctrination.
Evolution has been demonstrated on various levels. The Big Bang is a theory based on evidence supporting it. What evidence do you have that there is a god? None - See first argument.
Science is your religion. The big difference is science is always proving itself to be wrong. My God is the same in the Old Testament and he is in the New. He is a God that loves, but ultimately disciplines - much like earthly parents should do.
Science is not a religion. Science progresses where religion is stagnant. Like taking medication? Thank Science. Like healthy food, thank science. Science is the persuit of knowledge where religion hinders knowledge. You claim god this and god that - yet you still cant prove it's existance. How do you know your god loves? You are making an assumption on faith. Though there is no evidence for your claim, you still make that assumption. Why is that? Is it just to feel good?
My God does not exist to "promote fear and servitude". Christians have chosen to follow God. You have chosen not to. God could have made us robots, but he gave us free will. You're exercising yours and I am exercising mine.
Once again, your under the assumption that god exists. It hasn't been proven so you shouldn't claim it "gave" us free will or not.
You speak on science as if everything was an absolute and we can explain it all. We can explain what gravity does, but we can't really explain how it came to be. We think that a fish could decide to walk and throw itself on the beach and become human. If that's the case, why aren't the fish throwing themselves on the beach today? Maybe they've evolved to the point they realize they don't want to be humans, they're better off in the ocean. If that's the case, why aren't you evolutionist throwing yourselves off the pier and deciding to become fish?
Once again, your assumptions of scientific theory is incorrect. Pick up a science book and read. Apply the scientific method to your "god" claim and see if it makes any sense.
We both take what we believe on faith. Yours is limited by what our human minds can comprehend. The world is a random, happenchance kind of place.
You beleive the human mind is limited? Im sorry, but that is just sad. The human mind has given us Art, Music, Literature, etc. It even dreamt up your god!!
I believe there is a creator. There is intelligent design to the universe - yet we are given free will on how we live our lives.
Believe in anything you like, it does not make it so. Years ago the world was thought to be flat. Years ago people thought mental illness was caused by demons. Years ago, people thought Zeus threw lightning bolts from the sky. You believe there is a creator, but who created it? Intelligent design? Come on - tell that to a guy with prostate trouble!!
Makes more sense than a big explosion that formed everything randomly. And where did the stuff come from in the first place to go "bang". Ultimately, there had to be a creator to put it there.
It may make more sense to you, but not to the scientific community. If a creator had to be there, where did the creator come from?

You have yet to prove the existance of this supreme being - the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You say there is a god, so back up your belief with some evidence!! Don't try to debate the details - hit me with some evidence!! Until then, face the fact that everyone will eventually die. No pearly gates, no harps, no angels. Until sufficient evidence is provided - anyone who believes otherwise is a fool!

For starters, you'll never be convinced of God's presence and the positive value of religion. You heart has hardened to that point and that is sad.

There are things that cannot be proven nor disproven. You believe in evolution, but there just isn't proof either way. So, in your mind, did we come from chimps or fish? If we could evolve, why did some of the species choose to stay the way they were? I mean, wouldn't a chimp want to be on this side of the cage?

Evolution is a theory that "guesses" that humans formed from less complex creatures over a period of time due to random genetic mutations which collectively "stuck". That's how a fish that requires water to breathe can manage to live on land then grow feet and ultimately become a human. I think the human body is too complex an organism to have formed the way it is by random genetic mutations.

And yes, the human mind is limited. We are capable of wonderful things, but it is limited.

Science is your religion. One definition of religion is a set of beliefs that one follws devotedly. That describes your science. You can't prove the big bang happened. You have faith based upon certain evidence that is what happened. Your "bible" is the science book.

Again, believe me, I have a scientific mind. A very analytical mind. One that questions everything and puts everything through the wringer.

But, at the end of the day, there are things we can never explain. Either you believe the universe was formed by random, chaotic events or you believe in a creator. I have a personal relationship with God. I talk to him and he talks to me. He has shown himself to me in many ways. No need discussing my evidence because you'll find some other way to try and explain it.

It's like the old joke about scientist and God:

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need You. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't You just go on and get lost." God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was through talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man-making contest?" To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!" But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam." The scientist said, "Sure, no problem," and bent down and grabbed a handful of dirt. "No, no, no!" God said as He looked at the scientist. "You go get your own dirt."

For starters, you'll never be convinced of God's presence and the positive value of religion. You heart has hardened to that point and that is sad.

Because I am not easily duped into believing that there is a mystical all powerful puppet master in the sky my heart is hardened? What a pitiful accusation to make.

Yet, you still have not provided one shred of evidence, one hint of reason why you believe in your god.

I have a personal relationship with God. I talk to him and he talks to me.

What exactly does this mean? You have yet to provide evidence, yet you claim to have a personal relationship with it? Do you guys get together on the weekends and talk about the local sports teams? Toss back some brewskys? How do you have a personal relationship with something that isn't there?

You claim god talks to you and you talk to him. Does your family have a history of mental illness? Could you be having a psychotic episode? David Burkowitz (Son of Sam) thought his dog talked to him and guess how that turned out. As the old saying goes - "When one person hears voices, call him crazy. When a group of people hear voices, call it a religion"

Perhaps you should be a little more skeptical regarding the voices you hear and have an open mind.

but in my case, as far as God/dess goes....I have experienced God in my own way, many times. I admit that I cannot prove the existance of God to you, nor do I desire to do so.

I can only believe in what I have lived and experienced in my own life and have been blessed to have had exposure to all religions and ended up chosing none...me and organized religion of any ilk just don't mix but that never stopped me from loving and serving God.

No scientific proof needed on my part but I truly respect your choice and therein lies the difference between Hood and I. She doesn't believe you to be equal in the eyes of God, I believe we are all in the same boat, some of us are using our paddles more efficiently though.

Have a nice day.

Having been gone for the last week (my brother-in-law is getting married and my wife has been on a major house cleaning binge)I feel that I need to jump back into this thread.

When you write about god, exactly what or whom are you refering? Are you equating god to a "natural order" or "universal force"? I am just trying to get a better understanding of your position.

Regarding hood, I havent had time to review his/her posts but I plan on disecting them one by one shortly. I am glad you decided to join into the conversation - I was starting to think you were ignoring us :P

“The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas -- uncertainty, progress, change -- into crimes.‿ - Salman Rushdie

when have I ever said that any one on this board on any where else was not equal in the eyes of God?

God loves each and every person the same - whether that person be me, freethought, Jerry Falwell or Adolph Hitler. God loves us all - equally. To the best of my knowledge, I have never indicated anything otherwise.

Now, do I believe we get equal punishment or rewards in the next life? No, but again, not my call. I'll worry about me. I'll be happy to share my beliefs with any one that cares to listen. But you don't see me cramming it down anyone's throat and you don't see me saying that I'm better than any one else.

Feel free to cite an example of my writing if I am wrong and I'll be happy to address, but this is how I feel.

And it appears that you have quite unceremoniously judged me.

Hood, once again you are going on the belief that god exists and then you presume that this entity loves you. How do you know this? Care to cite an example? Isn't thinking that your god loves you a little presumptuious?

This is another typical assumption that theists make when they pose Pascal's Wager to atheists. The believer makes the assumption that the diety is a loving, caring god - when you look at the god character presented in the old testiment, it is truely a mean spirited, cranky blowhard.

It is one thing to determine there is a god, it is another matter completely to determine that it cares at all about you.

Please continue to share your beliefs, but don't be suprised to have them challenged.

Quite to the contrary, when I look at my life, I wonder why would the creator of the universe want to have a realtionship with me? But God does. And God wants one with you, too. I know this because I do.

There are people in the world that will never like Nascar. You can hear testimony after testimony of how much fun Nascar is. You can go to the race and experience it yourself. But for some folks, there just ain't no convincing them. Nascar is a waste of time to them. You're like that with religion.

As a disclaimer, I used to count myself in the anti- Nascar crowd. But I have been to several races and have seen the light. We go at least once a year to see a race.

My experiences with God are just that - mine. I share them all the time, but I won't do that here, right now, for you to slam something that I hold personally dear to me. And that is your intent.

God is real. God loves you. God has never left, even though you have rejected him. You don't have to accept that. You will most probably ridicule me. That's OK. If others are willing to risk their life to share the gospel, I can risk whatever garbage you'll throw my way.

Just so you know - I decided to pray for you tonight, freethought. I did so because I believe that you are worth praying for.

Every time you make the comments about how the door is open for everyone you speak volumes about how special you think Christians are in the eyes of "God." You say this because you believe that ONLY people who have been saved by the blood of the lamb will be saved by God. This is the entire premise of the entire religion.

Only those who accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior are going to be saved. You believe that, not me.

I have judged religion not very good for human evolvement...but that was my decision after years of investigating all types of religions. Please note that I never was an adherent of any of the religions I investigated but gleened from each of them what I discerned to be truth.

I apologize for judging you, but you are a member of a religion that says that freethought and I are going to hell...are you not judging us too?

It is a good thing that we can discuss this but I know where it will end...you are saved and I am not....la la la

where I have discussed this "door" so I can understand in what context I wrote it. I've done a search on this thread for "door" and you're the only one talking about it.

I believe that the Bible is God's word and His word states there is one way to Heaven. I do not believe that everything that God knows is in the Bible. I also do not believe I have ever said you and freetought are going to hell. I am quite certain that I have been emphatic in my stance that I never tell anyone they are going to hell, because that is not my call to make.

I can tell you what I believe and why I believe it, but, ultimately, you'll stand before God. I don't know your heart and I don't know everything about God.

Let's look at it another way - Islam holds that I am an infidel because I do not ascribe to it's teaching. As an infidel, I should be slaughtered and sent to hell. Now, what do I care if someone from another religion tells me I am going to hell. Not their decision. What I do care about is the fact they want to kill me.

So, my point is this - you don't believe you have to be saved to go to Heaven, then what do you care what other people think? I've never said that to you nor would I. If you are firm in your convictions, then it shouldn't matter what the Christian, the Jew, the Muslim or any one else says. That is between you and God. If you don't believe in God like freethought, then it is between you and you.

fa la la la la la la la la

but you have made comments about how the opportunity is out there for everyone to accept and be saved. Maybe not in those exact words but you and Yada and Axel have all made similar comments.

I don't want to get into it with you but isn't your religion based on the supposed divinity of Jesus as God's only begotten son? Isn't the only way to heaven through Jesus? This is your religion. You are free to believe whatever you want because this is also America...

I pay no heed, actually, to whether or not the Pope, you, Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson like how I serve God. I have learned from experience that there is no reasoning with people who believe they are chosen and forgiven.

Again, go to the ARmy of God website to see just how twisted the far right has become and see if maybe you don't see where freethought is coming from when he lumps falwell and bin laden together. These people are terrorists...

Again, I do believe in God, which you seem to be having a hard time accepting because no matter how many times I say I do, you come up with stuff like: "If you don't believe in God like freethought, then it is between you and you."

Maybe you don't like my understanding of God?

You have spoken of studying multiple religions and gleeming from that study what you like and that works for you. Great. Happy for you. You believe in God. I accept that and didn't think I was indicating otherwise.

My comment that "If you don't believe in God like freethought, then it is between you and you." was more of a generic comment to the masses using freethought as an example. You profess a belief in God, freethought does not. Your relationship with God is between you and God. freethought does not believe in God, so I guess it's between her and her.

I could care less what a fringe group that professes to be Christian does any more than I care what any other fringe group does. As long as they're not out hurting anyone. If they are, then let's get Janet Reno in a tank and go burn the place down.

Doesn't seem like how many times I say I'm not judging you, you just don't believe me. Yes, my Christian beliefs hold that there is one way to Heaven. Doesn't mean I think I'm better than you. Doesn't mean that you're going to hell or anywhere else. Again, I do not make that call.

You say you pay no heed and I believe that because you're arguing over things that I have not done and have not said. Maybe there is the whole guilt by association thing going on. Maybe you've experienced some discrimination at the hands of so-called Christians. I do not know. Just seems the more we discuss, the angrier you get no matter what.

There is a great line from a DC Talk song that I love and I share this for all the Christians out there:

"The single biggest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians - who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, but deny him with their lifestyles. That is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable".

Doesn't mean we have to be pushovers, but does mean if there is no difference in the behavior of a Christian and an unbeliever, then what is the purpose?

Let me try one more time.

To: enlighten, freethought and anyone else

I do not believe that I am better than you. I hold you as an equal in the eyes of God - whether or not you believe in such a thing. I do not assume that you are bound for heaven, hell or anywhere else based upon your beliefs or lack of beliefs. I believe what I believe. I have good reason to. I have my "evidence" and that is for me and those I believe I have been called to share that with. I am not crazy. I do not have a mental illness. You believe what you want to and I'll not call you names nor disparge your beliefs (or lack thereof). I condemn anyone who practices violence against another human whether it be for religious purposes or any other reason. I do believe that we have a right to protect ourselves and unfortunately, that leads to death and injuries.

So, you can either accept me or reject me - I don't care. My value as a human is not determined by what you think. It is determined by my relationship with God first and foremost and then my relationship with my family.

Have a nice day.

Moving on....

I am not angry at you, at the christians (although you are quite correct, I have been subject to and witnessed violent acts by people who swore they were christians) but I am increasingly concerned at the tone displayed by the militant amongst the christians. There is a violent and disturbing energy to the whole thing and I believe if you just ignore it, it won't go away. Someone has to speak out against those who claim god for their own.

"Doesn't mean we have to be pushovers, but does mean if there is no difference in the behavior of a Christian and an unbeliever, then what is the purpose?"

You got me on that one...what is the purpose?

militant anyone - whether it be "christian", muslim, agnostic or whatever is certainly cause for alarm.

I did go visit the "army of god" web site. First of all, there were obviously some very disturbing images of aborted babies, so please do not visit this site if those images will cause you irreversible emotional damage.

As a pro-lifer, I support their right to oppose abortion and use the graphic images to support their message. What I will not support is their claim to legitimize violence to end it. Violence begating violence cannot be the answer. God's people should rise up in a peaceful way against the atrocity of abortion.

So, we agree this type of fanaticism is dangerous.

My point regarding the purpose is this: if it is my great command to go and make disciples of all men, yet I lead a life that is no different and perhaps even worse than the unbeliever, then why would an unbeliever change? If I support the murder of doctors that kill babies, then I am no better than they are. If I behave one way Sunday morning and a different way Mon-Sat, then what does Christianity have to offer? For someone to make a choice to follow Christianity, they have to see that as an improvement upon the life they currently lead. If their "Christian" examples cuss, cheat, steal, etc...., then what does a "Christian" lifestyle have to offer? I hope that my example is one that says I am a little different, not better, but someone who may be searching can see that difference and want to know why I am the way I am.

That's all. Again, not to say as a Christian, I think I am better than anyone else, but that I have something to offer. That I have something someone else needs. Sounds like you have done that search and come to your conclusion. Others may be seeking, but if my example is not of a "good" person, why would they want to be like me?

Not sure if that made sense at all.

And applicable to all religions. If we are not walking our talk then we, as a human being, have failed.

The Army of God website did not disturb me because of the supposed aborted fetus' it shows, it disturbes me because of the WORDS contained there. I have never seen so much hate, fear, and flat out evil spewed forth in the name of the Lord or any other Diety, ever.

Granted, I am not out there cruising militant islamic sites...I am sure you can find just as much fear based thought there but I have never seen a Buddist site full of fear and hate....wonder why that is? Because their religion is based on self enlightenment and non violence and most of their members actually practice what they preach. I am sure exceptions to this can be found but for the most part they are peaceful because their religion dictates that they be so.

I am sure you are a "good person." I never said you weren't. Have a nice day and again, makes good sense to me.